Eleanor Ruth Garbutt Gilbert

HB: This is a tape recording for the Friends of the University Libraries, uh, for the Oral History Project. And I’m visiting with Eleanor Garbutt Gilbert of the Class of 1919 in her home at Valley Manor on East Avenue in Rochester, New York. And this is Wednesday – Thursday, August 2, 1978. And I appreciate very much your letting me come into your home and visit about your reminiscences of your student days at the University. You lived in Scottsville.[1]

EG: Garbutt.[2]

HB: And Garbutt. Did you go to Scottsville High School?

EG: Yes.

HB: Tell me about your early days in high school and what led you to come to the University.

EG: Well, I came to the University because my mother had always assumed that I would come to college so I didn’t think of anything else except coming to college, and, uh, we had three miles to go to high school and we, uh, drove a horse before we had the cars, and, uh, well, we had a wonderful time there and it was a very good education; we had a good superintendent and, um, my brother and sister, however, came to West High[3] because, uh, the school wasn’t so good at that time. And, um, they came by train and trains ran every few minutes, it seems to me, between Rochester and Garbutt, and, um, there were – well, it took about twenty minutes, is all.

HB: Were you the oldest in your family?

EG: No, I was third. Third of four[4].

HB: Third of four.

EG: Mmm-hmm.

HB: So, um, your older brother and sister came to West High before you?

EG: No. No, my, uh, older sister and my young brother.

HB: I see.

EG: Mmm-hmm.

HB: And, um, was this the expectation of the family that all the children would go on to college?

EG: Yes.

HB: What was your father’s business?

EG: He was a farmer and, uh, then, uh, they had, um, later, when they had the plaster and, uh, gypsum, that was very profitable[5]. And he was very interested in Republican politics and –

HB: Lovely. Where there any teachers in high school that were supportive of your going onto college that you can think of?

EG: Why, yes, I think so. I think they all, uh, assumed that I would, at any rate.

HB: It must have been quite an expedition every day to go to school by horseback.

EG: Oh, on horse and carriage, not on horseback.

HB: Oh, horse and carriage! Carriage. [laughs] Yes, indeed.

EG: Oh, it was fun.

HB: Now when you came to the University of Rochester, how did you come?

EG: By, uh, we came on train and then I stayed in a boarding house during the week.

HB: Where was that?

EG: The boarding house?

HB: Yes.

EG: Oh, different places. Birch Crescent and Alexander Street and so on. There no dormitories, of course.

HB: How would you find a residence like that? Did the dean help you or – ?

EG: No. Probably in the paper, I don’t know.

HB: You had to do it on your own?

EG: I had an older sister here.

HB: Is that right.

EG: Mmm-hmm.

HB: Well, that was kind of independent living, making the break from home –

EG: Yes.

HB: – going into a boarding home. You could walk to school there?

EG: Oh yes. All right around the University.

HB: Did you stay here over the weekend or –?

EG: There was nothing going on. [laughs] But, um, often went home.

HB: What were student activities like in those days?

EG: In college or in high school?

HB: Yes, in college.

EG: College. Oh, um –

HB: You were Theta Eta[6], weren’t you?

EG: Yes. Um, that, uh, sororities meant a great deal at the time when we didn’t have, uh, dormitories, and, uh, it was our only way of getting together and we’d have suppers, uh, at our homes. But, um, I’m glad we don’t have them now.[7] We have dormitories.

HB: Um, now you’ve made some notes and you’ve kind of been collecting your thoughts over these days. It’d be great if you’d share them with us.

EG: Well, sixty years – I’ve seen a lifetime of changes in many ways. When I entered the University of Rochester in 1915, we all came from a radius of about fif – twenty miles. They were most – we were most provincial and conservative. And Miss Munro[8], our dean, attempted to keep us just that way. Would you believe it? We were not allowed to wear pants, men’s pants, and, uh, therefore, we could give only Grecian plays in long flowing gowns.

HB: Oh, isn’t that beautiful.

EG: We had fine professors. Except for the few who didn’t accept the fact that young women were allowed at the University of Rochester. I remember how we loved Dr. Gale[9] even if we weren’t so fond of his subject, Math I. Dr. Kirk[10] was inspiring in economics and sociology. Oh yes, I have a personal story about that subject. Miss Munro checked our schedules individually. She crossed out my sociology. Too sophisticated for me, I guess. And wrote “Spanish I” instead. As my first insurrection, I crossed out her “Spanish I” and again wrote in “Sociology,” which went undetected.

HB: [laughs] Lovely.

EG: Psychology and education courses were rather deadly but they were, uh, required for school teaching and we had to have them. Oh, this time was of great excitement for two young teachers who are coming here from Harvard. Professor Perkins[11] and Packard[12] were excellent teachers and much beloved. Well, since there was a war on, 1918, the surgical dressing room, Red Cross knitting on Alexander Street, the Home Nursing Course at Genesee Hospital all had much more meaning for us than did Latin and math. We did have lots of fun. Dancing at noon to the jazz band made up of four of our classmates. There was a good theater at the Lyceum[13] – a Shakespearean comedy came from New York for four days every year. And we would stand in the long gallery line. One afternoon, uh, we spent the afternoon and evening there with sandwich bags.

Well, Catherine Strong and Anthony Memorial Halls[14] had just been built. The girls had a home of our own at last. The lunchroom at the end of the long “chicken run” was a social gathering place since there were no dormitories and the only time we had to see each other.

Well, we may have been provincial but, oh, a couple of years after college five of us sailed for Europe. Three of us lived with a French family in Paris and their summer home in the Loire Valley. After a morning of studying and tutoring we took off on our bicycles for a swim in the dirty, and I’m sure contaminated, river. Or to visit the Countess de Roquefeuil, who had a chateau[15] nearby. On evening walks on the one street in the little village, we would sing in French or English and attract the attention of all the village.

Well, we didn’t have to think about our future careers. There was no choice. There were two openings for women, namely teaching or social work. There were many positions in teaching open and of course very low salaries.

I wasn’t away from the University for very long. In 1925 I returned as a faculty wife[16]. The ensuing thirty-five years were most happy and rewarding. I highly recommend the teaching profession. At about this time, Professors DuBridge[17], Noyes[18], Dunkel[19], May[20] came from scattered parts of the country, as did the students. They were all excellent teachers and scholars. Our husbands were hard workers so we couldn’t get together much during the week. But the weekend parties of bridge or charades or just good conversation were most enjoyable. Oh, I’ll never forget Dr. Perkins and, um . . . let’s see . . . let’s see, uh . . . [snaps fingers] and Curtiss[21] acted out a charade. They came into the room squatting down, waddling along, and quacking like ducks the word “paradox.” [laughs]

HB: [laughs]

EG: We had a book club limited to twenty-five members which still goes on. We had our fiftieth anniversary this year. There are a couple, [sighs], almost every faculty wife is involved in some volunteer work and on the board of many, many civic and social organizations of Rochester. Of course, in those days the wife didn’t work. Even the salaries of that time were very low, but you rarely heard complaints. Well, when Eastman House became the property of the University as a home for the President, our charming Mrs. Rhees[22] became the reluctant hostess there. It was a beautiful mansion for entertaining but a rather forbidding home. The young Mrs. Valentine[23] seemed to enjoy the many receptions, teas, and other parties for the faculty, students, and townspeople. But after ten years it became, of course, a salon of photography[24].

Graduate school was now fast growing. The departments of history, English, economics, to name a few, were granting Ph.D. degrees. The Ph.D. in economics was given for the first time in about 1960 to one person, a brilliant Japanese[25]. Now there are fifty graduate students from all parts of the world in that one field. Its emphasis is econometrics. It, uh, attracts many from Japan, for they’re especially good in mathematics. . . When my husband was graduate dean[26], uh, we started a seminar in the graduate school. Every month we would have a speaker, chemistry or math students would come to hear Howard Hanson[27] or someone from the arts college lecture. Likewise, English or history majors would hear a lecture on physics or pharmacology. The refreshments were an added attraction.

Well, to be a Provost’s or a Vice-President’s wife means – meant a busier life. Not much time for home and family. One memorable bit I shall always cherish: Don and I were asked to represent the University at the inauguration of Mr. Killian at MIT[28]. Sir Winston Churchill was the honored guest and speaker. I love to say I had dinner with Sir Winston Churchill. I have to admit there were a thousand others there [laughs] at the Hotel Statler, including the speeches and music at the Boston Garden, where we were taken by bus. Sir Winston stepped to the edge of the platform, pointed to the Marine band, and asked them to play the hymn. He sang or mouthed the words with tears in his eyes, thinking about how these men had helped him save his precious island. There wasn’t a dry eye in the audience, I dare say.

Well, the de Kiewiet years[29] meant a great deal to me. Lucea[30] and I became and still are dear friends. I spent a great deal of time there, especially when I was alone. They were scholarly people. . . Oh, it was during this time, uh, when President de Kiewiet was there, that, uh, the girls, um, moved to River Campus.

HB: That’s right. Mmm-hmm.

EG: It was a privilege to meet the many distinguished honorary degree recipients for the luncheon at the Gallery or Eastman House. Eve Curie[31], J.P. Marquand[32], Anne Lindbergh[33], Marianne Moore[34], Marian Anderson[35], to name a few. I recall each of them vividly. Well, I told Eve Curie in 1921, three admiring college girls followed in the footsteps of her mother and sister. They were returning on the Olympic from America, where she received a great quantity of radium[36]. Uh, Eve replied, “Oh, we were so dowdy.” But I remembered her in her blue suit piped in red. It was very chic. I think it rather pleased her. I don’t recall who the others wore, but I can’t say “dowdy” would apply.

When Mrs. Roosevelt was a speaker at the Chamber of Commerce, she, uh, consented also to speak to University students. Since it was my husband’s privilege to introduce her, we called for her at the home of Mr. Joseph Wilson[37]. She of course gave an inspiring talk. Our trip from Strong Auditorium to the Chamber should have been an interesting one, with Ralph Bunche[38] in front with, uh, with Don, and Mrs. Roosevelt and I were in the back. But the police – they had two motorcycles leading and the sirens shouting and screaming and, uh, running red lights. We barely heard a word. She was truly a great lady[39].

I shall always have deep interest in my University. Our two daughters attended there[40]. So far no grandchildren have chosen it. Perhaps a great-grandchild will see the light.

HB: Isn’t that lovely.

EG: Do you like it? [laughs]

HB: Oh, it’s fascinating! I want to go back and catch a few more thoughts, if you’re willing. Um, do you recall anything from your undergraduate days, any particular professors who were outstanding in your mind that had a favorite course, or if the material wasn’t outstanding, that were just so captivating as individuals that it meant a lot in your life afterwards?

EG: Yes, I remember, besides all who I’ve already spoken of, um, Professor Morey[41]. He was oh, he was a very old man and his wife brought them over in their electric car and he just was able to get in and that was all. And he taught International Law and Constitutional Law and I’ll never forget those courses, they were wonderful.

HB: And you carry little, I often think so many times we forget the content but we remember little peripheral things that have been turning points in our life later on – and was he that kind of a person for you, Professor Morey?

EG: Well, yes, he – I think so.

HB: But you majored in French and English, didn’t you?

EG: [laughs] Yes, I did.

HB: And you taught French and then you taught history too, didn’t you?

EG: No, English.

HB: Oh, I see.

EG: I taught English again after, um, I was sixty, when I was alone, and I went over to visit my daughter in, uh, Japan.

HB: I want to talk about that.

EG: And I was kept there for three years to, uh, teach English.

HB: Now was this after Dr. Gilbert’s death[42].

EG: Yes.

HB: And, uh, you went to visit Emily. Emily and her husband were –

EG: At International Christian University, the one Mrs. Sibley was so interested in[43].

HB: And you stayed three years and taught English?

EG: Well, I came back and forth.

HB: Isn’t that great.

EG: I taught Japanese that all had, uh, six years of English. But, uh, they didn’t speak it – they had, uh, men professors, Japanese, and so they couldn’t carry on a conversation. They were such perfectionists that they wanted to speak it perfectly. And so to have a woman teacher for the first time, an older person – they have respect older people – uh, they, uh, felt very much at ease with me and I could make them talk, and, uh, they were at – had free discussion. We read something good, and, uh, a Steinbeck play or Hemingway, and read something that was very good English.  And, um, then we’d discuss it. They got to come to my apartment and to discuss their own – maybe they didn’t believe in any God or they were thinking of committing suicide.[44] They felt free to come and it meant a great deal to me.

HB: Isn’t that beautiful! Now, did you live in this little apartment there?

EG: Yes, there was an apartment house right on campus – everything was on campus – the dormitories. And it was the only one in Japan, which, um, they had over thirty acres of land and so, um, they had faculty homes when we were there. And my daughter lived, uh, in the house overlooking Mount Fuji and rice paddies, and, um, just through a little woods; I had to walk through a little woods to get to their house.

HB: Isn’t that exciting. What memories do you have of Japan, uh, that you carry?

EG: Oh, well, I – there were mostly Japanese women in the dormitory – Japanese teachers or, uh, older girls in the English Department and the librarian, and, um, I traveled with them. I traveled all over weekends – I only taught part time so I was able to go, uh, weekends. And then the summers mostly there. And I went even to the Island of Hokkaido, which is north and where you don’t see any tourist throngs. [laughs]

HB: Isn’t that lovely. What kind of people are they?

EG: Oh, they’re charming. Oh, I just loved my students; I had hundreds of them. And, uh, they’re, uh, that courteousness is sincere too. And, um, they are very jolly and lovely. I loved them all and they loved me. [laughs]

HB: Isn’t that beautiful. Do any of them get over to this country?

EG: Oh, at least ten have come over here to graduate school.

HB: Oh, isn’t that great.

EG: One, uh, came, uh, up to the Divinity School[45] and one to medical school and others have been in physics and economics, and, um, from our university. Now there’re a great many that come in other subjects, especially economics.

HB: Oh, isn’t that great! Now, I wanted to ask a question. Back in the days of – before Catherine Strong Hall was built, where did the women gather?

EG: One little room in, uh, Anderson Hall. [laughs]

HB: Oh, is that right?

EG: Yes. Um, let me see – was Catherine Strong built, uh, before I – I think yes, we had Catherine Strong Hall when I was there[46].

HB: Dr. Woodward[47] mentioned this one little room in Anderson Hall toward what then became the library after – you know, facing the library, and that Susan B. Anthony would come over and call on and visit the women and tell them how much was hanging on their scholarship and searching out if any of them needed help and giving them support. Um, I thought that was rather interesting that she would follow through with the women. But, um, I don’t recall myself when Catherine Strong Hall was built.

EG: I ought to know but I can’t remember.

HB: But you – you were there in the administration of Dean Munro. What kind of a person was she?

EG: She was very sweet, and she was very conservative, and, uh . . . well, some people loved her. And, um, but I felt, uh, that we didn’t have much freedom.

HB: Mmm-hmm. Was she a difficult one to approach or, uh, did she mingle with the students?

EG: Oh, not at all.

HB: Mmm-hmm. You only saw her if you were a problem [laughs] or an exceptional student, probably.

EG: [laughs] But, uh, I remember she was so precise about things – oh, chapel – compulsory chapel was deadly with her and, um, when we would have a dinner or banquet she would sit up there so precisely and, uh, see that no one started eating before she did. So we did this day, some of us would say, “Miss Munro has taken her fork.” [laughs]

HB: [laughs] Oh, that’s interesting. Well, I’m so interested in capturing little vignettes of Dean Munro because we have a fine tape of Helen Bragdon[48], and then, um, Katherine Koller Diez[49] and, um, Alice Wood Wynd[50] have, um, taped their recollections of Janet Howell Clark[51] which are beautiful. Just lovely.

EG: Oh yes, she was a wonderful person.

HB: And, uh, we are anxious to kind of pigeonhole the administrations so anything I can garner about Dean Munro I’m anxious to do. She, um, lived with the Hale family[52], didn’t she?

EG: Just two doors from, uh, Catherine Strong.

HB: And that’s where the women clustered then, over on that side of Prince Street and University Avenue. Could – did they have library privileges? Could they come over and use the library or was there a library for the women?

EG: Oh no, uh, we used the library.

HB: You did. Then Anthony Hall was the gymnasium?

EG: Yes, and lunch room.

HB: And I suppose the social room.

EG: Mmm-hmm.

HB: Um, I was interested that you mentioned there were only two options, teaching or, uh –

EG: Social work.

HB: Social work. Was nursing available to women then?

EG: Oh yes, yes. I couldn’t remember – I just wasn’t into it.

HB: But when you think of the opportunities students have today –

EG: Oh, they do many things.

HB: – it’s no wonder they are so bewildered about what to do. When we were younger there were, as you say, teaching, secretary, nurse.

EG: Some of our girls went into secretary work too, but, uh, we just all assumed we’d be teachers so we had to take the awful courses in education.

HB: Now Dr. Gilbert came to the University from where?

EG: Harvard.

HB: He did his undergraduate work and doctorate at Harvard?

EG: No. He – undergraduate here at, uh, Rochester, he was an undergraduate[53].

HB: Oh, I see.

EG: And, uh, then, uh, he went to Harvard after that.

HB: Did you know him as a student?

EG: No, I didn’t; I was two years ahead of him. It wasn’t that I was that much smarter. [laughs] There were a lot of - uh, six of the men were in Europe – our whole crowd – and we all met each other in Cook’s where they gave the mail.  Six Rochester men and six Rochester girls.  And, um, we had great conversations and we learned who was who. And then, uh, we came back and, um, we were both teaching in high school[54]. Don had to teach a year before he went to, um, Harvard to improve his finances and I was a French teacher. Well, we kind of two departments by the end of the year. [laughs]

HB: Oh, isn’t that great! That’s interesting.

EG: Now, then we went to Harvard.

HB: So you went to Harvard?

EG: Yes, to Harvard, to graduate school[55].

HB: Um, I’ve forgotten what I was going to – oh, who was in the group that went to Europe with you? Were these college classmates?

EG: It was the Henckell girls and Betty Filkins. Esther Henckell and, um, Marian Hinkle Livering[56]. And, uh, Esther was in nursing school and she just took time off. But, uh, Marian and I wanted to teach French. And, uh, Kay Van De Carr[57] was, uh with the other group and, um, Don made the fifth. And, um, the three of us lived with a French family in Paris for ten days and did heavy sightseeing there and then moved out to their summer home in –

HB: Now that was a precursor of the Experiment in International Living if I ever heard it.

EG: Yes. [laughs]

HB: That was quite an adventure in those days.

EG: It was – it was quite an adventure. We had to sail, of course, because Lindbergh hadn’t crossed the Atlantic.

HB: And you went together on, uh, the liner –

EG: The Liberty.

HB: On the Liberty.

EG: Li – on the Olympic.

HB: Oh, on the Olympic, I see.

EG: The sister ship of the Titanic.

HB: Oh for heaven’s sake. Well, isn’t that fun to hear about that? Now, uh, I want to jump – no, before we do that, let’s think in terms of – as you look back on your undergraduate years, do you ever feel that, um, do you feel that those were pretty wonderful academic exposures that you had? That you don’t regret that you couldn’t have gone to Smith or Holyoke or something like that?

EG: Um, my mother had always planned that I would go to Wellesley, and, uh, I was to go my last two years, and the Henckells were too, and, uh, we didn’t want to go; we all wanted to be stick together, so we didn’t go.

HB: This is interesting because so many of, uh, your generation and my generation went to the University because that, uh, was all their parents could afford, and the scholastic experiences we had and the friendships we made and the activities we were involved in were such that we didn’t feel short-changed.

EG: Oh, we didn’t at all! Even though we didn’t have dormitories.

HB: Um, that’s right, and I didn’t live in a dormitory either[58] and that was back in the thirties. But, uh, I think the scholarship that the professors demanded of the students really gave them a sense of achievement and exhilaration and there, um, were no regrets. And the people I’ve talked to, they felt that this was a first-class education.

O EG: h yes.

HB: Um, jumping – was there something you wanted to add?

EG: No.

HB: Jumping to your years when you were a faculty wife, um, the women’s group – it wasn’t the Women’s Faculty Club that met in the little brown house on Prince Street[59] – that was a unique group of its own, with that big round table where everyone mingled in a delightful way. But, um, what was the name of the group of faculty wives that became such a powerhouse in the community?

EG: I don’t know.

HB: Well, um, the faculty wives were all members – it wasn’t the Women’s Faculty Club as such, um, it was the wives of faculty members and you had different study groups, you had bridge groups –

EG: Oh yes!

HB: You had study groups; you were into all the social service work in the community. . .

EG: Yes. Mrs. uh, Murlin[60] was – started that – the Women’s Club[61], where everybody belonged and then there were all sorts of clubs that – study groups that – I know I took a French course. And there were bridge clubs and oh, every kind of club. It still exists.

HB: I can remember Mrs. Kingslake[62] starting a little –

EG: Surgical dressings.

HB: Yes, and, um, she took books to shut-ins and I believe she’s still doing it to this day.

EG: She is.

HB: I see her coming out of the library and taking armloads of books to people, and I believe she started that little venture. They were a remarkable group of women. Now there was a triumvirate that I recall as a student: the Hoffmeisters[63], the Van de Walles[64], and the Gilberts.

EG: Well. [laughs]

HB: Tell me a little bit about that. Were you students together or did you start out –

EG: No. No. We came to the faculty at the same time and very soon we bought, uh, property at Canandaigua Lake and, uh, built log cabins in the – a cove, and, um, we, uh – oh, we had such wonderful times. The Westons[65] joined us too and the four of us there – the children now, the grandchildren too, are like brothers and sisters. We had the best time.

HB: Isn’t that beautiful.

EG: And, um, I just sold mine this last year.

HB: Is that right?

EG: The Hoffmeisters sold theirs when they went to Florida. Ed Van de Walle died at a very early age[66].

HB: Yes, did he have a heart condition?

EG: Yes.

HB: He was such a sweet gentleman.

EG: He was a wonderful man.

HB: Yes, he sure was. Um, friend of mine was a student of his in philosophy, Bob [Cantor?], and just thought the world of him. So, um, Dr. Van de Walle was in Philosophy and, um, Dr. Hoffmeister was in Geology and Dr. Gilbert was in Economics.

EG: I remember when you had your class – you girls.

HB: Oh yes, I was an Economics major.

EG: [talking at the same time]

HB: I haven’t anything to prove for it today –

EG: Johnny Ancona[67].

HB: That’s right. And that was a wonderful department. They certainly were very supportive of us students and we used to come to your homes for teas and that was – it was wonderful. Well, I’m glad to get that straight about the Women’s Club of the University. You’ve seen the administrations of Dr. Rhees, Dr. Valentine, Dr. de Kiewiet, and Dr. Wallis[68]. Do any thoughts occur to you about the, um, different profiles of those administrations?

EG: I think I’d rather not say. [laughs]

HB: Sure. Well, I didn’t mean to put, um, you on the wall, um, comparing them, but I think of Dr. Rhees. I only knew him a couple of years as a very austere, aloof gentleman.

EG: Yes he was.

HB: But, um, I was surprised at how sensitive and, um, perceptive he was, because when – the one time I really shook his hand was at the Senior Reception, and he recognized my name and had, uh, known my father and spoke very kindly. I thought that was very –

EG: That’s unusual because he usually hurried them along in line.

HB: Of course, Dr. Valentine I thought was, um – it’s funny, there’s a person for the job in history when the needs of an institution are such and somehow they seem to match up and work out. I remember Dr. Valentine because I was a student there then. Dr. de Kiewiet and Dr. Wallis I don’t have enough exposure to make a judgment.

EG: Dr. de Kiewiet was a great scholar.

HB: Is that right?

EG: And a very fine person.

HB: And you feel that scholarship made a stride – a push forward under his administration?

EG: Yes.

HB: That’s interesting. Do you think of any, um, other insights into the faculty or faculty wives that would be fun to discuss? You saw the faculty grow from such an intimate group –

EG: Oh yes!

HB: – to such a horrendous number.

EG: Oh, I hardly know anyone now. At the Gilbert, uh, Seminars[69] now you know they have a distinguished economist come every year and they have a dinner and then there’s a speech and a reception for graduate students afterwards. And, um, it’s called the Gilbert Seminar – there’s only one couple there that even knew Don.

HB: Is that right?

EG: But they are going to keep on with the seminar.

HB: Isn’t that great!

EG: The students love it. Oh, I love it too because I get to meet all the graduate students from every country in the world!

HB: Oh, isn’t that wonderful. Well, as you do walk around the University now, my goodness sakes, it’s a far cry from what it was when I was a student and I knew everyone I passed on the way. But it’s, uh, the thing that sticks out in my mind so is that the facilities and the resources of the University are so singular, so unique, and of course, it’s the people that –

EG: We had great Presidents of the Board of Trustees. They’ve been great men.

HB: Now who were –

EG: Think of, uh, Ray Ball[70] and Joe Wilson, Merc Brugler[71], Herb Eisenhart[72]. They’ve all been civic-minded people.

HB: Yes, they have, yes, they have. And I think this is one of the reasons the University has been so great, with people taking such a pride in it. You mentioned your, um, I was very interested to hear you mention that you and Dr. Gilbert represented the University at MIT because my father had a reunion at MIT at that time and one of the memories he’s always cherished – did always cherish – was the fact that he heard Winston Churchill. And he cherished that program and the little medal that was cast for the reunion classes, and that was quite a moving thing for him.

EG: Oh, it was wonderful. Uh, we gave him an honorary degree at the University of Rochester but, uh, in absentia[73].

HB: Mmm-hmm. Well, this has been a fascinating little discussion. I hope if you think of other things you’d like to share with us, you will let me know and I’ll come back and visit you again.

EG: [laughs] Thank you.

HB: Tell me before I leave – your daughters are Emily is at –

EG: The University of Toledo; her husband’s a professor there. Her, uh, two older children have returned to Japan, where they had all of their high school and grammar school education, and they are very happy; they are teaching English. And a boy who’s in high school. And then the other daughter, Virginia is here in Penfield. Her husband is in the research department, physics department, at Eastman Kodak. And, uh, her oldest boy is married and, uh, lives in Denver. He went to – took his, um, graduate work at the University of Wyoming, um, ecology, and he has a very fine job in the park system. And the daughter – oh, she went to Europe after college and went to, um, Israel – what do you call it now in Israel – a kibbutz, and, um, met a Scotsman there, man from Glasgow, and they are married now and they’re here. They came here and, uh, they have a little boy so I’m a great-grandmother.

HB: Oh, isn’t that exciting.

EG: And they have a girl that just graduated from, uh, high school.

HB: Isn’t that exciting.

EG: So there’s my family.

HB: Well, that’s fun, and I see all the lovely pictures there. I think that’s great.

EG: That’s my, uh, travel shelf over there. I can look up there and go to twenty-five or thirty countries, and when I can’t sleep at night I just, uh, choose among the countries and travel there.

HB: Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, I certainly enjoyed this little visit and I appreciate your going back and making such a nice little organized outline of your –

EG: Well, at this age when you don’t recall things so quickly it’s nice to have – [laughs]

HB: Well, it’s just great. And on behalf of the University, I want to thank you very much for sharing these with us, and that will be very interesting to scholars in the future who’ll come and want to study about the days when you were a student. Thank you, Mrs. Gilbert.

EG: Thank  you.

[recording ends]